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| Tired of Jesus , "NWO". and guns! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 13 2008, 06:45 PM (1,373 Views) | |
| Miragememories | Nov 17 2008, 02:30 PM Post #26 |
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atheisim: the theory that God does not exist. faith: complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
I have seen far too little evidence providing support for the validity of the Official WTC collapse theories. I have seen far less evidence providing support for a valid belief in the existence of a God as described by the major world religions.
A God that only exists in one's imagination, is not a God that can be proven to exist.
Atheism is not a choice. It's a rational conclusion derived from the absence of evidence to the contrary. You are correct; we are not born with a belief in God. From an early age, when we are most vulnerable to the influence of adults, we are indoctrinated into a belief in God. I'm an atheist, but the conditioning I was subjected to, still lurks within me. MM |
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| alexvegas | Nov 17 2008, 03:04 PM Post #27 |
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alex25smash
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It's rare to see someone copy and paste lines of post to agree with it! |
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| William Rea | Nov 18 2008, 06:02 AM Post #28 |
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I believe that the "NWO" that I see described by many people is a construct of their religious beliefs and, as an atheist that is what I find most disconcerting. Their irrational religious belief forces them to construct an opposing mythology around a "NWO" in order to rationalise for themselves the imbalance of power and wealth distribution in the world. The "NWO" as it stands is an umbrella for all sorts of cultist nonsense and the label needs to be reviewed by rationalists. My favourite example is the very confused Right Wing. Depending upon the extremity of their own religious/political views they pick from a multiple choice concoction of options such as The Illuminati, Internationalism, Socialism, Communism, Atheism, Judaism, leftist media et al. For example, if I pick my own little mix of the options I can construct an elite of Atheist Jewish International Socialists who rule the world and pretend to give us democracy. This construct would justify my substantial weapons hoard, my anti-semitism, my Fundamentalist religiosity and my National Socialism (as distinct from the International Socialism because in this little construct I want "Socialism" in my own country at the expense of the rest of the World). This also conveniently allows me to justify all the tinpot Right Wing dictators in the world as being put in place by International Communism so, I can shrug my shoulders and say "Hey, it's all down to those goddamned Reds!". NOTE - For the religious you can add the satanic element. The Fundamentalist argument that Atheism is a faith is an old chestnut. I attribute this to the fact that they have lost the rational argument and are trying to define atheism in supernatural terms in order to attack it. A very typical Strawman. |
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| William Rea | Nov 18 2008, 06:12 AM Post #29 |
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You should use the term "theory" but be careful about it because there are certain people who will use that to conclude that theory is equivalent to faith when it is not. I would use the term "theory" as well but, only because I cannot prove absolutely that God(s) do(oes) not exist. It was a long journey from agnostic to atheist for me, this is one area that I struggled with and, I eventually decided I was actually atheist because the overwhelming evidence is that there is no supernatural supreme being. Edited by William Rea, Nov 18 2008, 06:13 AM.
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| Citizen Pawn | Nov 18 2008, 11:57 AM Post #30 |
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Just to be clear about my stance in this all. I am an Agnostic. I don't believe in a "Supreme Diety" , but I DO believe that there is an intelligent 'force' behind the tangible world. I believe this "force" has structure and we haven't begun to understand it's process. I believe that there are other dimensions and that our higher intelligence(soul) has a matrix that doesn't 'die'. I do believe in a spiritual realm, I have proven to myself that it exist and have many personal experiences that 'something' is out there. But it's not some Streets paved with Gold with dancing children playing Harps kind of thing. My thoughts and 'beliefs' are so basic they are mostly based little evidences that I've gathered through the years, unexplainable things which I don't have time to get into. But what I believe is a far cry from the myths of religious Dogma and 'tradition'. The Dieties, the Goblins, the "evil vs. good", the "you'll be punished for that", the myths propagated by books written by MEN, etc. I was a "Born Again Christian" formerly. I studied Hebrew and Greek for years when I was younger. I was obsessed with the notions of "god" and such. I even thought at one time I had a 'special' understanding of Theology and people convinced me that I should have been a Bible "Teacher". It was only through personal experience and REAL STUDY of the Biblical texts, that I came to the conclusion it was nothing like I had been told it was. After that I quickly started to really SEE the lack of logic and reason in the Dogma. I also questioned it. I was more interested in the history of it , the meaning of words and the civilizations it birthed. I was never into the Dogmatic part of it. Very early after I 'became" a Christian (half way forced) I had questions which none of the 'Elders" could answer. It was all just made up theory and everyone had their different take on what it all meant. Put plainly, it was all bullshit. After reading other works by more in depth writers, I realized that most "Christians" have "faith" in a very child like level of fantasy, most of which can be explained rationally or through some other method, and that the Bible in many circumstances is a collection of even older histories and stories copied. Many Christians are also well meaning people. But well meaning people can be mistaken too. Nobody is above mistake. Peoples 'beliefs' can get them in trouble when it dictates their lives. Because it stretches out into politics, affects their neighborhoods and workplaces and families. There is no end to where Religiosity and "Belief" can stretch. Before soon you realize you are partly living in a world, society, city, county, created partly and ran by people that believe some guy with horns on his head runs around a Dungeon in some nether region plotting against a guy with Wings and a Beard. That is what I have had enough of. Peoples beliefs should be their own. Even if what they believe is complete insanity. Religion followers have every right to their blind "faith", even thought I see no evidence or reason for it. It's when it affects me and the people I care about or affects my NATION and my Government, I have a problem. In many ways, Religion has drawn a line in the sand and is not giving up. They won't go away quietly. So I will keep speaking out against them to stay out of my Constitution, and stay out of my POLITICAL MOVEMENTS. This country was founded in part for Freedom FROM Dogma. I'll be damned if I'm going to trust that same destructive Dogma to be at the base of a political movement which I belong to, which fights those VERY SAME Cult aspects. I am not going to fight Cultists by acting like one myself. So many times in history, oppressive groups and cults are fought with the establishment of COUNTER groups and cults. It DOESN'T WORK!!!!!! It never works, it WILL NOT work. You cannot pretend to have "God" on your side while the other guy does also. Better part of humanity on my side? Sure. A sense of justice on my side? Sure. A goal to right wrongs and inequality for the betterment of civilization? Of course. But NOT through "Jesus". Children dead from starvation and war, the looting of America, the robbery and subversion of our system of Justice. Things like these are very real. "Jesus" , and all the various myths that come with "him", are NOT "real". They cannot be established like melting point of steel , for instance. So let's please leave 'him' and your beliefs out of this. This is a fight for Liberty and Truth in my opinion. This isn't Lord of the Rings. |
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| Tim Riches | Nov 18 2008, 05:46 PM Post #31 |
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Bravo!
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| bretwalda | Nov 21 2008, 11:20 AM Post #32 |
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Like who? |
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| Flippy | Nov 21 2008, 11:55 AM Post #33 |
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Another excellent post by CP.
You're really driving that point home... about us being unstable for not trusting or believing in everything these two knuckleheads spew. By typing it in all caps... If anything I'd say you are emotionally unstable. For defending a couple of guys you know about on the internet and probably haven't even met. Alex Jones and Mark Dice ARE the dividers in this movement. Spewing crap like "They're going to kill us all tomorrow" is no different than the fear mongering done by the Bush admin + paid press crew. Edited by Flippy, Nov 21 2008, 11:55 AM.
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| FUNWO | Nov 21 2008, 09:28 PM Post #34 |
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Thanks for agreeing. That is all I needed. As you clearly understood I had to emphasize that sentence that way to show somebody with a very narrow and selective attention were the focus was. That sentence has following assumptions: 1. I am Fed up 2. People bash Alex Jones 3. People scathe Marc Dice 4. They do that repeatedly 5. Emotions must be someway envolved Let's proof if there can be found some sentences on this forum to back up the assumtions 2,3 and 4. And when we have found them in the last 3 months we can maybe assume that it is rationaly possible that I am fed up with repeated criticism (1), because I do read this forum quite often. Please judge yourselve if following sentences are just opinions and overwhelmed with emotion(5) or factual correct, fair and with constructive criticism. Citizen Pawn: "Alex Jones is getting on my nerves.", Nov 13 2008 christfarb: "Alex really lost me after the Peter Joseph interview. His drama was entertaining in the past, now it's just dumb.", Nov 13 2008 tower: "Also, it would be nice to have more rationality and less Bible prophecies on the Alex Jones show.", Nov 14 2008 Domenick DiMaggio: "wow, i hate alex jones.....", Nov 7 2008 BoneZ: "9/11 was an inside job and I knew that before I even heard of Alex Jones. We don't need Alex Jones to prove one way or another that 9/11 was an inside job.", Nov 7 2008 mr freedom: "unfortunately people like Alex Jones and David Icke lack credibility.", Nov 4 2008 mr freedom: "I brought Alex Jones up, because much of his output seems to be wild speculation.", Oct 25 2008 mr freedom: "Alex Jones behaved school yard bully, I was shocked. My impression was that he felt intellectually threatened.", Oct 18 2008 jackchit: "Anyone heard Alex Jones on his show the last few days? he's really lost it over this movie and some credibility along with it.", Oct 18 2008 chrisfarb: "I'm very, very, disappointed with him.", Oct 18 2008 jackchit: "me too, his rhettoric and outright lies were almost j-ref-esque.", Oct 18 2008 Reggie_perrin: I wish alex jones would get off this new world order bullshit, he still hasn't realised that the neo-cons derailed the new world order,[...]", Oct 15 200 Domenick DiMaggio: "alex jones? fearmongering??? nah!!! never!!!!", Oct 9 2008 outside: "People need to start looking beyond Alex Jones and others. He gives you truth, but doesn't wanna go any further. As he said on one of his shows once that the Vatican is not for the war because they say so. The words of a true truthseeker isn't it?", Oct 2 2008 Tim Riches: "Unless we all want to be branded with the same iron that Alex Jones and Mark Dice were, I'd advise a low-key approach to this kind of thing, unless the result you're trying to achieve is polite titters behind the hand or outright ridicule.", Oct 1 2008 Citizen Pawn: "Alex is so full of useful 'factoids' on his show, when he's calm. But when he gets worked up, he loses his mind. He is truly a loose cannon in that regard.", Aug 29 2008 Domenick DiMaggio: "i've had issues with alex jones' credibility for quite some time now. i'm just throwing that out there because i know a lot of other people do too and a lot of them choose not to mention so publicly. call it an ice breaker and lets see where it ends up....", Aug 11 2008 honway: "he claim has been put forward that Adnan Khashoggi is the owner of Genesis Communications Network. We know Genesis Communications Network syndicates the Alex Jones Show. Alex Jones must address this claim. If Adnan Khashoggi is in fact the owner of Genesis Communications Network, that would be worse news for the truth movement than finding out Larry Silverstein owned Genesis Communications Network.", Aug 11 2008 22205: "the kid's over-suspiciousness to me is an indication that he is already going overboard and perhaps might even be listening to too much alex jones without being old enough to see a bigger picture. all im saying is that an overload of information (thanks to today's technologies) can be unhealthy and lead to excessive paranoia and/or distorted perception, wether its AJ or someone else.", Jul 19 2008 EDIT: These sentences are just about Alex Jones. There are several similar sentences about Marc Dice. Please, use the search engine of this forum. Edited by FUNWO, Nov 21 2008, 09:36 PM.
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| FUNWO | Nov 21 2008, 09:30 PM Post #35 |
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Religions are very interesting. Please sign to some newsgroup and chat the whole day long about religions, if that is where your interest are. Meet new friends. Enjoy yourselves. http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity?lnk= Atheism vs Christianity alt.religion.christianity alt.religion.christian.pentecostal alt.christian.religion alt.religion.islam.arabic alt.religion.christian.episcopal talk.religion.misc talk.religion.buddhism Hindu Religion aus.religion.islam talk.religion.bahai soc.culture.jewish.moderated soc.religion.quaker alt.religion.angels alt.religion.scientology.xenu Baha'i-Religion esp.charla.religion soc.religion.islam soc.religion.christian alt.religion.christian.methodist alt.religion.wicca.moderated alt.religion.christian.last-days alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan alt.religion.shamanism alt.politics.religion alt.religion.christian.catholic ... |
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| chrisfarb | Nov 21 2008, 10:37 PM Post #36 |
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FUNWO, did Alex and Mark not go on the religious offensive and attack another truther? That's my only gripe with them. |
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| tower | Nov 22 2008, 01:54 AM Post #37 |
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Then you're not an agnostic.
You're not stating that it is unknown, you clearly state that you do believe in some kind of deity/creator. But I don't have any problems with that, just wanted to clear things up. |
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| Citizen Pawn | Nov 22 2008, 02:44 AM Post #38 |
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Wow FUNWO. I seem to have really hit a special nerve. You're very upset about my rant, I can see. And now we are advised to go seek out religion forums, to discuss religion in politics? In the "Lounge"? And quote mining 20 different quotes to make a 'point'? I can quote mine 30 people saying things about BEER and FISHING. And many people have said things about Mark Dice and Alex. They have 'represented ' us and claimed to speak for us through proxy. I'll dish the shit to Starbuck Dice and Alex all I want. Gotta bunch of folks I never even met on the internet claiming to speak for me and my 'movement' in the past. They put their heads on the chopping block, better think twice before being sold bold and arrogant. It's only fair they get 'checked' by other "truthers". I have a voice, I'm an individual. Alex and Mark don't speak for me when they talk about Wizards and Goblins. Glad you brought up Mark too. Here's a dude, get this cuz this shit is hilarious. He writes a book about the "New World Order". It's patterned after Alex Jones style and info, with a true attempt at 'digging deeper'( not so much), as it is kinda rehearsed ala Bill Cooper, David Icke, Alex Jones, Jim Marrs, and others from , shit, from when I was a kid in the 80's. He then protests Starbucks for it's 'mermaid'(holy fuck is this thing on testing 1, 2)He then rails against "homosexuals', does "Beach Babes for 911 Truth", gets threats by Mike Reagan and when we were all on his side (yes even me shocker huh)he strikes a deal after we all jumped on Reagans FUCKING HEAD , and he decides to tell nobody, then appear as a guest when people overwhelmingly thought that was a bad move(since he was 'speaking' on our behalf), he then comes out with a 'dating' book and has the 'wits' about him to advertise it HERE? And he has no apologies about it, mostly posts here when it serves him in some way, and never engages others as if he's a big chief on the 'truth' mountain. Am I to understand that I should invite someone like that into my 'tent'? We all under the big tent here? Take one for the team sorta thing? All for one , one for all? FUCK THAT!!!!!!!!!! I'll tell you exactly what I think about people in this 'movement' claiming to represent me. Say I'm a producer looking for a 5 star band, hard hitting masters of their craft, masters of their instruments. I'm up against tough crowds and hecklers LOOKING for a reason to get me yanked out of a venue. One of my drummers comes to a show drunk and talking weird shit to the crowd while I'm singing my ass off ? I'd have the fucker yanked. No shows, no phone calls, get a new drummer, YANKED. You wanna clown around on a battlefield? Might as well smoke cigs in the jungle while the VC is half a click away. You wanna give away my position, I might frag you, I got friends, family, and kids to protect. And about Alex. He's talks A LOT lately about people 'trashing him'. And he's become more and more smug about it. Sometimes, the guy has gotten creepy about it, as if his lower self is fighting his higher self. You can sometimes hear the struggle he's in. It's a nervous and tired spirit fighting there, he's not sounding healthy, he needs to take a break. At the same time, he says things like "people that post about me are either agents, jealous, or trying to cause disruption". The "Movement" always advertises on supporting the 'individual'. But when someone actually IS AN INDIVIDUAL, they're not in the gang, they're 'agents' or disinfo, distracting and so forth. And in light of actions from someone like a Mark Dice, someone like ME, is the "disruptor"? Really??? Alex has on guys who speaks perfect logic and facts for an hour, then talk about 'the will of God and Revelations" when they go to the phones? And little old "Citizen Pawn", or people like me.......... are the detractors? There's a bit of irony there if you look. Now about my posts: Have I said something untrue? Have I slandered anyone? In my Op Ed style rant have I stretched so far as to morph or disinform? You're saying I have no valid points or concerns? You're saying that my thread about the concern of Religion mixing with the "movement" , isn't valid? You're just going to ignore the 'what' of what I said and appeal to emotion and authority this whole time? Tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me the WHAT, not the HOW. So you don't like my moral compass, you don't like my 'style'. So what? I could give a rats ass. Now tell me about my "WHATS". Challenge me on what Ive said. Call me a liar if it fits, but these things have concerned me. Personality Cults concern me greatly and if I see someone mimicking a CULT in my name, they get the thorns. It's just the way it is, I can't apologize because I truly feel the world needs more like me in that regard. It is one thing I consider "true" about myself among my many shortcomings. |
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| Citizen Pawn | Nov 22 2008, 02:50 AM Post #39 |
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No, I don't believe in a "Creator", in a Biblical sense. Not a Diety. I believe in a creative force. And you are correct. My general stance is "I don't know". I have had hints, but I don't speak as if I 'know" I wouldn't bet money on any of my initial base level 'beliefs" I don't live my life around it. And the term "Agnostic" has morphed a lot to suit modern thoughts. I think I would still qualify as an Agnostic. What label would YOU give me, for arguments sake? What would be my classification? I didn't include that many of my thoughts on the matter could be explained scientifically. I think humans experience things they don't grasp yet. But I don't speak as if I know or have "faith" on the unseen. This quote of mine is not exactly true: "I do believe in a spiritual realm, I have proven to myself that it exist and have many personal experiences that 'something' is out there." That should say: "I have had much evidence in my own life of a realm or dimension beyond the 'normal' realm. I have proven and witnessed it, and know that 'something' is out there beyond what science has grasped so far." That would be more correct and closer to what I feel. Edited by Citizen Pawn, Nov 22 2008, 02:59 AM.
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| Tim Riches | Nov 22 2008, 03:29 PM Post #40 |
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I keep wanting to jump in and add to the thread, but Citizen Pawn has said it all! I have been very proud of both Alex Jones and Mark Dice on occasion. When Alex confronts the scumbags directly it is hard not to be impressed with his tenacity. When Mark disrupts a class of zombies, telling them about 9/11 Truth and calling them sheep when they pass on the DVD he offers, I cheer out loud! This activity is what will win the war for us, one skirmish at a time. We Are Change has managed to be at the forefront of this war by doing these very things (in spades!) yet have kept their religious feelings separate from the struggle (they are!) It is only when religiosity enters into the fray that you lose many of those who are your biggest fans. David Ray Griffin is a great example of someone who fully gets this. He has done some talks about 9/11 Truth which are framed in religious terms, and very effective they are in rallying the faithful. Mostly his religious beliefs are kept out of the discussion, for apart from how those of religious faith square that faith with what is happening to their government, it is a complete irrelevance. He understands this, why can't Alex or Mark? The goal is to convince the multitudes, not preach to them. At the cost of aleinating those with no religion these two are increasingly speaking to their 'base.' A special case does need to be made to distinguish Alex Jones from Mark Dice, for it is unfair to paint them both with the same brush. When Alex Jones goes on a major rant over something that solely affects his faith, like, oh I dont know, Georgia Guidestones? Then they are the same canvas, but not until then. The NWO and Satan can be considered indistinguishable by some, but for most they are not synonymous, and this is a movement for 9/11 Truth, not a movement against humanistic, satanistic, or hedonistic behaviour. This is very descriptive of the vibes being given off by AJ. It is pretty scary to think of where this may go. If this is what the movement must turn to in order to win, then it's simply replacing one type of 'evil' for another. |
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| Tim Riches | Nov 22 2008, 03:40 PM Post #41 |
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I add for humorous reasons that the targeted ads on this thread are hilarious! "Learn Ancient Hebrew from Holy Land Masters," "Social Networking for followers of the Christan Faith,"
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| Citizen Pawn | Nov 22 2008, 06:01 PM Post #42 |
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I pretty much echo everything you said Tim. Alex Jones has done some great stuff. I could very well list where he has done great things. He's very intelligent, he is not some hick from the sticks people might see him as. He is one of THE premiere experts in his field, but it gets lost when he gets emotional, so people don't see it. I actually like his passion so it doesn't bother me. He seems to be genuine about his caring for humanity. He has a great sense of humor. Love his impressions, his Jesse Ventura has me on the floor. He's very insightful, can see the big picture, "gets it" for the most part. These are examples of positive things, he's not some monster that I think is misleading the masses for some super nefarious reason. But even 'good guys' need to be checked out or called out. In the world we live in, the liars and deceivers have ruined it for honest people. This is part of the human condition. It sucks, but after many have come in the name of all things good and honest, only to turn around and stick America in the back, can we afford to be fools? |
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| tower | Nov 23 2008, 02:52 AM Post #43 |
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If I were to, pardon my French, label you, I think I would call you a theist, because you seem to believe in a creative force, much like what Hinduists (Atman) do.
I see. I personally haven't seen any of these proofs, but let's not derail the topic, please. |
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| William Rea | Nov 23 2008, 04:23 AM Post #44 |
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It made me smile as well. This is probably the sort of "academic institution" that Fundies go to to learn that "Though shalt not kill" should actually be translated from Hebrew as "thou shalt not murder". That little chestnut helps to justify a whole lot of right wing nonsense. |
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| FUNWO | Nov 23 2008, 08:56 AM Post #45 |
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Pawn, I told you already that the basis of your rational thinking is questionable. That means that you will quite often believe in false conclusions and knowingly or unknowingly say statements that are untrue. I really do not understand why you force me to tell you where you have been wrong, but I will point out some sentences that are easy to proof untrue That list can be rather long. For example you never asked me honest questions about me, but you started to jump on conclusions about my character. Doing this is rather adventurous and it will become difficult for you to proof/verify. It was untrue that I am a fanatic of Alex Jones. It was untrue that I even can be a fanatic of something and blindly follow some leaders. It was untrue that I never questioned Alex Jones or Mark dice. It was untrue that I do not want people criticizing them. It is untrue that everybody who listens to Alex Jones has to fit into your categories. It is untrue that everybody that listens to Alex Jones becomes a fanatic and can not separated the topics he is talking about. It is untrue that Alex Jones is possible of misleading the 9/11 movement or that he possibly wants to. It is not true that religion is a centerpiece of his radio show. Only Alex Jones knows if he is paid by some organization or wants to mislead the movement in the future and he is the only one to proof you wrong, but you already showed that you characterized me wrong, so at least I know now that there is a chance that you are wrong about Ales Jones too. I could have told you that I admire most David Ray Griffin, Steven E. Jones and Richard Gage in this movement and that I like the tactics of Wearechange and Luke Rudkowski. Alex Jones had all of them on his show and the makers of Loose Change, Dylan Avery and Jason Bermas, are fans of him. He had also Daniel Estulin and Jim Tucker on his show and they predicted very well things that have come true. But I do not believe anyone if they say something that can not be proven scientifically or is illogical and I always keep my critical thinking switched on. Infiltration happens everywhere and you can bet that this movement is infiltrated by agents, that try to influence, mislead, divide, deviate, control, discredit, radicalize or freeze the movement. Even if you have a honest person that had his merits you still have to ask if he has done more damage to the movement or was influencing in a positive direction. Everyone starts with zero points in my inner characterization rating and based on what I come to know they lose or gain points. That is a rather difficult evaluation process that does not rely on just a few cherry picked events. Alex Jones may have 10000s things I do evaluate, perhaps even 100000. You evaluate all what they have said and have done and you evaluate their value for the movement. Then you check also with whom they associate with, who they trust and mistrust, who they try to smear and who they praise. It is rather important to know if you deal with somebody that is anonymous or somebody who is well known and you know who pays his rent and what he has done before and if his actions are constant and always the same based on moral and ethical concerns. You have to take in account how strong their efforts were and how successful they have been, plus if they have been framed and had ad hominem attacks on them perhaps lose their jobs over their political efforts. A bit of personal feelings, their credibility and other psychological evaluations are also mixed in. After that process you have formed an individual rating that can look like this: David Ray Griffin: + 4000 Steven E. Jones: + 3000 Alex Jones: + 2500 Webster Tarpley: + 240 Mark Dice: + 230 Me: + 0,05 CIT: -5 Zeitgeist-Dude: - 200 Jim Fetzer: - 400 Judy Wood: - 1000 Nico Haupt: - 2500 And tomorrow that list can be different, because it is an instant evaluation. Mark Dice is still at the plus side and I would always defend him if he is still there. But I have also criticized him and I have told him that personally on this forum. There is no way you can dispute that. You never can forecast somebodys character on things he may do or say in the future. Keep here and now in the present and tell what somebody has done to explain what you say. You did that and I do agree on the things you named. But you have still to tell the whole story if you make a conclusion. |
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| Flippy | Nov 24 2008, 03:37 PM Post #46 |
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You know... there just MIGHT be GAY people in this here movement. It just MIGHT be offensive to hear Mark Dices bullshit views. Just maybe. You know... you catch more flies with sugar than you do with vinegar. Screaming at people "9/11 was an inside job" does nothing more than annoy them to the point of not caring. Not wanting to seek evidence. Not wanting to research. Those are your two prophets. The way you speak of them. They are NOT my prophets. In fact they HAVE given me reason to stop caring about 9/11. I mean heck, when idiots like that think they are the voices of many. Why should I be part of their movement if I disagree with 90% of the bullshit they spew. |
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| Citizen Pawn | Nov 24 2008, 06:47 PM Post #47 |
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In the end, in life, when you 'belong' to a movement or group of common beliefs, goals, and objectives, there has to be a point or part in which you RELATE to those claiming to be at the forefront. Many people at the forefront of our movements have many of my same sentiments and concerns. I 'agree' and concur with many beliefs held by the most NOTABLE in these 'movements', but I cannot RELATE with them. If I cannot relate to a "Christian" theme or belief, I cannot support it wholeheartedly. Thus, I and other like me, will eventually walk away from it entirely. This is something that anyone with wisdom must consider. Many people don't like the term "New World Order" for reasons I've stated, many people are Agnostic or Atheist and aren't politically active out of wanting to do "God's work". Many people don't believe that Satanic Cults run everything, that these are "End Times", or that Jesus died for our sins and we need to "get right with God", as I've heard MANY of Jones' guests say. I do not RELATE with this and it is not my belief system. So no matter how much we agree in things like the Fed Reserve, 9/11, IRS, CIA, Israel, Banking, Corruption, and such, I am not going to feel like I am part of that. If I listen to the Alex Jones show for instance, and hear numerous references to Jesus in the commercial spots, or what the "Bible really says". How much longer after 5 years of listening to his show can I really 'feel' like I relate? I can't. There has to be an "AHAA" moment in someone like me where they say "Wait a minute, what exactly am I supporting here and what exactly do I 'belong' to?" Every responsible person in life must ask themselves what they subscribe to, if they care at all about their life. Most people don't have the self responsibility to check their value system and associations, so it usually goes unchecked until it's too late or they fall into trouble. So with myself, I recently took a hard look at Alex Jones(self titled 'founder' of the Truth Movement in his words) and I had to ask myself, "Is this me?" And while the subject is me, the styling or overall thought of "Alex Jones's version" of the Truth Movement , isn't me. I'm sorry if that seems 'divisive' but what should I (we) do? Should we ignore it? I'm just one person out of thousands that feels the way I feel. It's just that I tend to speak about things that rock the boat more than others. I'm a squeaky wheel that way, it's not intentional, it's just my nature. So with that, if the Truth Movement decides to let people like Alex Jones' and Mark Dices of the world represent us as a "Christian" Movement, I can't support it. I know it may offend people but I can't in good conscience let myself be represented by people that don't really 'believe' what I believe. If that bothers someone I don't know what else to say. If it is labeled "Alex Jones bashing", then so be it. It's not that Alex Jones is a 'bad person', I just don't feel I belong in 'his' Movement. |
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| Tim Riches | Nov 24 2008, 09:11 PM Post #48 |
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There are many faiths represented in this movement, including those with an absence of religious faith. However, there is nothing religious about 9/11 Truth whatsoever. In fact, some may feel that it is irreligious to participate in political movements of any type, as they are 'of the world' or 'worldly,' and to actively seek political change is to divert your attention from achieving the Theocratic government sought by many of the faithful. 'You can't serve two masters' and all that. I don't know anyone like that now, but I was brought up Jehovah's Witness and I know there are those like them who would be indifferent to us. Those aren't the ones we're trying to reach anyway, so no loss. Despite the wide range of beliefs espoused by those in the movement, I think it should aspire to be non-religious, so as not to alienate those of a particular faith or those of no religious faith. Alex Jones and Mark Dice (others?) seem to feel that since 'America is a Christian Nation' their efforts at exposing 9/11 Truth to the populace must therefore include a religious aspect, in whole or in part; or that religiosity must factor into the struggle somehow, at least in order to reach the religious. I strongly disagree.9/11 was an inside job, comitted by government and it's proxies, and therefore falls under political and judicial jurisdiction. (was that phrased correctly?) Religion has no part to play in the campaign save that a representative be on hand when the perpetrators are executed. Also, and this may seem a tad unfair and petty, but I just have to throw it in. Where was God on 9/11? A few minor tweaks here and there, nothing overt mind you, and many lives would have been saved, during that day and in the aftermath we still look at nightly on the tube. Nothing major, just some small nudges that could be explained away later and still get the job done. You know, like when He gives a few warning creaks in the roof of a house of worship to allow the faithful to escape before it falls in. Oh... er... |
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| William Rea | Dec 15 2008, 07:11 PM Post #49 |
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Bumped after reading the Georgia Guidestones thread. |
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| Citizen Pawn | Dec 15 2008, 09:58 PM Post #50 |
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Can you expand on how the two threads relate? I have a clue, but I'm not sure. |
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Bravo! 
their efforts at exposing 9/11 Truth to the populace must therefore include a religious aspect, in whole or in part; or that religiosity must factor into the struggle somehow, at least in order to reach the religious. I strongly disagree.
7:54 PM Jul 10